MORGAN Y. EVANS: This is your first real solo record and you know yourself better than anyone. How did you distill as a musical statement what you wanted to say? The record is really personal and intimate and yet raw.

WINO: Well, the thing is some of the songs are really old. Some are brand new and some are really old. I just decided to clean house. Basically, Jean-Paul is so good and enthusiastic about it, his enthusiasm and virtousity really lit a fire for me. The fact that we also did it with J. Robbins, he's an amazing producer. I finally got the drum sound that I wanted.

MYE: Jean-Paul rocks the ride cymbal cooler than anybody in the business as far as I'm concerned.

WINO: Everything about it is great. Jon Blank, he has the greatest sound. I've struggled with low-end issues with bass players. We're a three-piece so it's always very important, you know?

MYE: A power trio needs to have the body to it.

WINO: [stops to talk to kids a minute] Grab those chips and a soda...Yeah, my boys are here. They don't know it yet but I'm trying to take them to go see Neurosis. It'd be their first show. I don't know if I'll be able to get it together, but... They're seven and five. They haven't been to a rock show live yet. They're gonna be bikers someday. [laughing]

MYE: That's a pretty intense one for a first time! So with "Release Me", the opening cut on Punctuated Equilibrium, the record really kicks in. You know you've arrived. How did it feel to realize this album as a reality and have it finally come about?

WINO: I'm totally stunned. I gotta tell you, I'm stunned by the press. When I put something out I have no way of knowing if people are gonna like it or not. I just have no way to gauge, especially a record like this. It's kind of bluesy in spots. But I really thought this record has something for everybody. "Eyes of The Flesh" is down and dirty and I got a few fuckin' punches on the record in at the Republicans on their way out. "Release Me" is a pretty old song. It's a painful song. There was a point in my life where I didn't want to live anymore. I listened to (The Obsessed's 1994 opus) The Church Within today all the way through for the first time in a long time. I was like, “Wow, man. There's some heavy stuff on there. It's my life.” And being able to release this solo record and have people dig it is the best honor I could possibly have.

MYE: I was talking to Greg Anderson (musician and co-founder of Southern Lord Records) about his new project Ascend recently when they put Ample Fire Within out and he was talking about The Church Within and how the record is intense but also how it was one of the best album titles ever because even when you're struggling, there's that sacred space of your soul that you have to hold onto somehow.

WINO: Exactly. Without it being some fake denomination shoved down your throat. That's exactly it. And in my booklets I try to thank the people that've helped me. I like them to know I appreciate it. I'll tell you what, man... If you're an asshole in this business you turn into Rob Zombie, you know. You might be able to draw or sing real good but the whole entire nation thinks you're an asshole. It's not the same.

MYE: I don't know Rob but I just interviewed Sean Yseult (ex-White Zombie) and she was so nice, a really cool person. I loved their music.

WINO: I toured with them when he had just dropped her and he wanted her out of the band so bad, but she was smart and owned half of the name. Fuckin' dude, we're talking psychological abuse, Oh my God. And he would get on stage in front of ten thousand kids and berate people in the stage crew for fuckin' twenty minutes. I saw him one time...it was twenty or thirty degrees and there was a kid in a wheelchair and I'm going back to my little bus and I see this kid and he asks me, "Is Rob in there? Can you ask him to come out and sign something?" I go find Rob and say, “'Dude, man, there's a kid in a wheelchair. He's been out there for a half hour and really wants you to sign something." He just stuck his nose up in the air and walked right by him. But you know what? When they were riding through the California desert and Rob had his own bus they saw some UFO's out there and after that his whole attitude changed. I guess he realized that there's something bigger than him. He got kind of mellow after that.

MYE: Woah. [laughing]

WINO: You know what he did to us? The first Obsessed show on that tour, the very first thing, Rob was eating in the catering area while we were soundchecking. We were too loud for his meal and so he told them to clip our P.A. They put a limit to what our soundman could do! They put basically a piece of tape over the equipment, but...check this out...The dudes on the PA were really cool and Rob treated them so bad that by the end of the tour we were back up to full power. That's the real story.

MYE: Dude, man... I've seen you play 4 or 5 times on bills with Clutch. I think the first time might've been Coney Island High when you were in Shine before the name changed to Spirit Caravan. I'm thirty and that was the first band of yours I really got into. Clutch is my favorite band and has been for about ten years now. I'd see them and saw you play at some shows years ago and I thought,"Wow, this is so awesome." So I researched more about you and it was great. The last time I saw you play was with Nebula, Mastodon and Clutch in Saratoga.

WINO: Yeah, yeah. We were opening up.

MYE: The Hidden Hand had just started, yeah, and you guys killed it! The Mastodon guys were right by me watching you at the front of the stage. It was when Divine Propaganda first came out. I gotta say, with Clutch, I loved your cameo with them on their song "Red Horse Rainbows" from Pure Rock Fury. It's one of my favorite jams of theirs.

WINO: Yeah. I liked that song. That song came out really good. I liked playing on that record. It's always an honor playing with people you respect. There's a magic there, you know?

MYE: I was just wondering, I know the Maryland connection, but, how'd you all meet?

WINO: They've been together as a band for a really long time and when they were younger and kind of on their punk rock kick, The Obsessed was already cookin' and they'd always hear all the crazy stories about stuff I used to do back in the day. When we met, I was blown away. They had a good sound, good and heavy. Transnational Speedway League was a little more punky, but If you took Neil out've the mix it's a great ‘70s hard rock band. But then you add Neil with his magical lyrics and aggressive delivery and the kids, they love it! I love it, too. His word play is amazing. We got to be really good friends. They took us on tour many times and would let us tour with them as long as we wanted. A band like that, they tour so much they want to be able to watch something they'll enjoy watching, you know?

MYE: Yeah, you don't wanna be out there with assholes, and also they educate their fans about bands they like.

WINO: Yep. And believe it or not, I think the Wino band is gonna go out with them a bit this summer and Tim (Sult-Clutch guitarist) is gonna help me on some of the trickier stuff like "Release Me" and "Smilin' Road." There's a lot goin' on and overdubs. In the studio I'll do that because that's what it's for, you know?

MYE: Yeah. Maximize it. That's great to hear. I was also wondering about the record name Punctuated Equilibrium, how that came together?

WINO: That's kind of interesting. My wife brought that term up. It's how she described my personality. She didn't know the true meaning but the way she described it is you hold everything in until you just pop. When she said it I thought, "Punctuated Equilibrium. Wow, that's pretty cool. I'm gonna use that." So I was telling J the story while we were recording and he goes "Let's look that up." So we Wikipedia it and that's when we find out the whole rapid fire evolution and scientific trip about it. We fell apart! It was just something she said in passing and it turns out it's a whole theory. Evolutionary changes take place very slowly, but if you condense it down like a little Island in Indonesia where they found those little people...

MYE: Or animals confined just to a certain island sometimes, yeah.

WINO: Right, it happens faster. It trips me out that she said that without knowing what it really meant.

MYE: If you tie it into a music scene, I was talking to Kevin Baker of The Hope Conspiracy and we were talking about the the bands that came from the old D.C. scene and even when there was Bad Brains and Minor Threat and The Obsessed, you had a lot of diversity in that scene. Nationally, now, there's a lot of diversity but there's also so much of people trying to sound the same these days whereas you guys had an insular scene that produced so much evolution. Look at Jawbox and everything they went through including Novelty up to their last records!

WINO: And that's J! That's the same dude that produced this record.

MYE: Exactly.

WINO: It's great, man. Do you have the bonus disc? You probably have just the album 'cuz the bonus stuff is coming out on the vinyl. There's a cover we did, it's got a funny story, too. It's a very left field cover. When I was little, I was about nine, and everywhere I'd go I'd see this record. That was Three Dog Night's Live at the L.A. Forum in 1969. [Note: It's called Captured Live at the Forum.] On that record there's a song called "Chest Fever", like heartache, you know? It starts off with this fuckin' totally eerie keyboard thing 'cuz, you know, Jimmy Greenspoon is great. They did this rockin' tune! Fast forward twenty years and I'm in fuckin' California fuckin' selling speed to the original bass player. We're sitting around all wired up and I said, "Dude, I love that song "Chest Fever", And he says, "Dude, that's a cover".

MYE: It's by The Band.

WINO: I'd never heard their version until we got into the studio and J says, "Yeah, that's off Music From Big Pink." We listened to their version and after I heard it, I thought, "Yeah, I'm doing the fuckin' Three Dog Night version!"

MYE: [laughing] I've gotta hear that 'cuz I'm from Woodstock, NY. The Band is from up here and shit and I've never heard the Three Dog Night version.

WINO: The Band version is pretty close to the cover but they kinda break down in the middle to this kind of Band jingle jangle circus-y stuff. It kinda bothers me. Three Dog totally deliver.

MYE: [laughing] I've gotta hear it. That's actually probably my favorite song by The Band, seriously.

WINO: Is it really? That's a trip. So you've only heard that version and I'd never heard it! That's great. Go find the Three Dog record. The reason I covered it is I found the record in a thrift store for a buck! I thought maybe I should cover it and at first I thought of maybe doing it drop tuned but then Jon Blank and I were messin' around with it and realized playing it like it was is the best way. There's that, and there's also a really off-kilter jammy one on the bonus disc that's been around awhile that The Obsessed never recorded. We demoed it, but...It's called "The Gift." It's really a crazy jazz tempo in the beginning and then breaks down into a funky thing. It's gatefold vinyl. One side opens where you pull out the 12" and there's another pocket glued to the inside and you get another bonus 10". It's kinda weird. It's pretty cool, though. It gives Davey (artist David D'Andrea) more room for art.

MYE: The cover art is very nature themed.

WINO: It's pretty hippie-dippy, but I like it. He did everything that I wanted. I wanted to have two pillars, the Masonic pillars Joachin and Boaz. They have significance with the Temple of Solomon and the whole Masonic trip. One of them has my astrological sign and on the other pillar I put my other symbol which is the Moon, and if you look closely you'll see The Pleiades in there. And then at the top of the art is what was an Egyptian Solar Disc but I made him include a Cross, the Cross of Nibiru. See I'm one of those people that believe, like Kerry King (of Slayer) in the 12th Planet. This is what I believe. I've done a lot of research. I'm kind of a pseudo-Biblical scholar. The Sumerians told the whole story in the tablets that later became the Bible. They told the story of the Planet of the Crossing. When this planet gets closer into our orbit it causes all kinds of Chaos. It comes by once in thousands of years. What happened is, it struck Tiamat and Tiamat became our Earth and our Moon. That's how our Earth was formed. It was one gigantic mass and our Moon became the particle. And the 12th Planet is coming back around and when it does, that's when the shit hits the fan!

MYE: The Planet of The Crossing.

WINO: Yeah. You know what you oughta read, a book by Zecharia Sitchin. He was an old Sumerian scholar and his first book is called The 12th Planet. People think I'm a nut when I talk about this stuff. I read articles all the time. Kerry King, it shocked me. He said, "Oh yeah, I totally believe in that. Nibiru." If you know anything about Sumerians and the Bible you start to see the connections, so instead of just using the Egyptian Disc, I also put the Cross on there.
Symbolism is more powerful than you think. People that use the symbols like Pentagrams and stuff, some people know what they're doing and some people don't. Personally, when we used to play with the band Pentagram, I didn't like looking behind me and seeing a better Baphomet! It wasn't condusive to my life, you know? [chuckling]

MYE: [laughing] In The Hidden Hand you talked about Mayan stuff. I was wondering your thoughts about 2012.

WINO: See, that could maybe be the same thing. I'll have to get The 12th Planet out and see when the cycle is due again. Maybe that's when the cycle comes back. It could be something more subtle. Basically, the Vatican and the Pope, they know what's going on. Mary Magdalene was not a whore, they made that up. She was definitely a High Priestess in the Ascanius Cult and was married to Jesus for a fact. She absolutely bore children. The Church, they know the lineage exists and that's what they were hiding all these years. Or there could be a twist. Maybe Jesus was an alien, you know? The whole part of The Watchers in the Bible was left out. I wrote a song about that. The Watchers were...

MYE: Angels that got banished.

WINO: Giants that interbred with humans.

MYE: I was talking to Burton C. Bell from Fear Factory about this, his new band Ascension of the Watchers is named after that. They're awesome.

WINO: Yeah, he's all into that too, right? That's the whole story. They created man as slaves. When you see some of these Sumerian tablets, dude, they've got beakers and the whole nine. They were messing with DNA, these people, or these, whatever they were. Why should we assume we are the smartest people that ever were? There's no sense in that, just like there's no sense in saying being a Muslim is better than being a Christian, because, if you believe in God, you believe in God, right?

MYE: I hear ya.

WINO: You see ancient tablets and pictures of flasks and stuff. The Egyptians, they could electroplate stuff using gold and use juice as an acid in an alabaster jar, you know what I mean? And these cultures sprung up so fast, out of nowhere.

MYE: It's interesting.

WINO: I'm way off into it.

MYE: I wanted to ask you 'cuz there's a pseudo-science aspect to some theories and it often clashes with science for some people.

WINO: In my opinion science has proven it because they found recently a huge planet that has the same orbit as Nibiru. When I read about that it makes me think they found it. It reinforces my theories even more. It has a huge, long orbit. You never know. I wouldn't be suprised at all, though I'd gladly read stuff to refute it, too. I know one thing you don't do, you don't mention David Icke on your first album. [laughing]

MYE: [laughing]

WINO: It's funny because the book that I mentioned of his, all it was is one called And The Truth Shall Set You Free, all it is is him detailing conspiracies about the C.I.A. and shit, a lot of which was true. He hadn't gotten into his whole theories of reptilians yet. But all I did was mention that book and people didn't even read the book. I mentioned it and people said, "Wino's into the reptilian thing." And others said, "Reptilian is just code for Jew."

MYE: [cracking up and spilling beer]

WINO: I even wrote the dude back that said that. I said, "Did you even read the book I'm talking about?" And he said, "No, but I went to the website." I said, "Then you're a moron!" Not only did he accuse me of being a racist but he didn't know what I was talking about from reading the book I was talking about. He just assumed. There are plenty of things that are hard to swallow until you see it with your own eyes. I think Icke stretches it a bit. They painted him to be this horrible creature and [that] he said something like, "He was better than God", but what he really said was "God is in you. God is in me. God is in everybody." But they twisted it around like he was crazy and saying, "I'm God." They painted him out to be like that and he lost his job.

MYE: I also wanted to ask you about some of the instrumentals and stuff on Punctuated Equilibrium. "Eyes Of The Flesh" is some of Jean-Paul's slowest drumming since Transnational Clucth days and is great to hear as a big fan, and then you have fully instrumental songs also. "Wild Blue Yonder" is almost proggy. It breaks up the album well.

WINO: We knew fully on, with 'Wild Blue Yonder" that it was gonna be a jam. We fully intended it to be a nice long jam. We had the magical jam and we took all the great parts and were able to edit the parts. We still have the 18-minute version somewhere! It's a great jam. We just went in and introduced the riff and went off.

MYE: You guys should do a double-sided record of it like when Skynyrd had "Free Bird" on two sides of the cassete in the day because it was too long. [laughing]

WINO: People are already asking me to do that. The thing is though, the chemistry is where it's at with Jean-Paul and Jon Blank. At first I hired Jon to play bass on, like, two songs, and I was gonna do all the rest. I couldn't help but notice he learned shit in 5 minutes. He'd have it after once! He said, "I'd really like a stab at it!" And I said ,"You know what, I think you get the job." Because he was just so fucking good, you know? He's young and enthusiastic and he's not fighting me. Some of the other band members would get weird because of all the attention on me. Dude, I can't help it. I've been playing for twenty years. People are gonna talk about me and my bands. But Jon doesn't care. He's just happy to be there. It's a great vibe, man. Totally different. These guys have got me lit up pretty good. The Hidden Hand put a bad taste in my mouth. The last European tour was a drag. The thing with drummers, with The Hidden Hand our first one, Dave Hennesey, he was the best. He had a crazy style.

MYE: The jazzy guy, right?

WINO: Yeah. He's a guitar player and we knew he wasn't going to stay, but we roped him in for awhile.

MYE: He was an indie rock guy, right?

WINO: Yeah. Ostinato is his band. The best shows Hidden Hand ever did where with him. People used to really bug out about him. He had the constant foot. But then Bruce (Falkinburg, Hidden Hand bassist and co-vocalist) decided he didn't like his own bass sound anymore with the Fuzz-Wah. He didn't want to have a gimmick. I said, "It's not a gimmick! It sounds so great. You're cutting new ground here!" But he didn't hear it. After that The Resurrection Of Whiskey Foot came out and he wrote the concept, which was amazing. The songs were great, the lyrics were great, but I don't like the production. There's no low-end. People don't notice. They love the record but I can't even listen to it. There's a weird vibe to that record, too, because that cover, that was a book from the ‘30s that came to us in a very strange way. This dude found it in a thrift store up in the mountains and the book was called The Hidden Hand and had that cover with the little symbol and everything. We were like, "Woah!" Pretty weird. It was a dark book, too, for the time it was. That started the vibes and then we went out in the graveyard with candles and...That's when it all started. I call it "The Haunted Record". I'm not saying a superstitious trip happened but it's kind of coincidental, you know.

MYE: That band is interesting in that The Hidden Hand has had the biggest journey of your bands. The others had their own identity and The Hidden Hand did too, but I think more than any of the other bands each Hidden Hand record seemed like you were going through stuff that led to the next.

WINO: You're absolutely right. I thought Mother Teacher Destroyer was a masterpiece. I still do. That's why I was so dissapointed, because I knew we really had something great. I think Evan (Tanner) played great drums but couldn't tour with us so we had Spinal Tap drummers.

MYE: You've worked with JP on Punctuated but now you're also working with my other favorite drummer ever, Dale Crover of the Melvins! Tell me about the Shrinebuilder project with Dale and some of the Neurosis and Om guys.

WINO: It's magic. I'd never met Scott Kelly (of Neurosis) and I've never been in a two guitar band. I've never had someone in my band that sings like that either. I sing my way and he sings his and Al (Cisneros) and Dale did some Gregorian monk type chanting harmonies. I've gotta tell you, it's magical. We'd never played together as the band until the night before we went into record. I've known Dale. He breathed fire into the Shrinebuilder stuff and it came out really well. I'm actually having the ProTools disc sent out to J Robbins as we speak and having him fatten it up. I think it needs a little more ass. We did it in L.A. and I didn't bring my pedal board. I've been putting pedals together out there so I almost have a full board but I didn't have my guitar synthesizer so I'm gonna finish some stuff and give it the full treatment here. Scott Kelly is amazing. He can scream but his solo stuff, the baritone stuff he's doing is great, man. E-bows come in. It can be bombastically heavy one minute and the next it can get real dreamy. That's what it's about.

MYE: Yeah, everybody is wondering what the style is gonna be like.

WINO: Bombastic dream, man. [laughing]

MYE: [laughing] Right on.

WINO: It's cerebral but there's heavy parts that are really psychedellic.

MYE: I love E-bow. My old band worked with Doc from Bad Brains and he let us borrow an E-Bow guitar he'd had made for him, and it was so choice.

WINO: Those Fernandes Guitars or whatever?

MYE: I'm not sure, but it's such a cool instrument.

WINO: I always wanted the Sustaniac Pick Up. It's magic, man. I've also been boning up on my slide. I got some videos of Warren Hayes (from Gov't Mule). He's the best. And Lowell George. I didn't like Little Feat's music a lot, but that motherfucker can play slide.

MYE: Gov't Mule plays near me a lot.

WINO: Warren, man...He's the man. He's got a really unique style where he plucks with his index finger and he mutes with his thumb and his other fingers. So I've been boning up. I raised the action of one of my guitars and I'm gonna put some slide on the Shrinebuilder stuff.

MYE: I read some magazine that was giving you flak for liking Gov't Mule and I thought, “That's Bullshit, man."

WINO: Giving me flak for liking Gov't Mule? When I saw them and Allen Woody was alive and they came out and did "A Love Supreme", I'd like to see that dude say something then.

MYE: Some people might not dig the music style but you can't deny a great guitar player.

WINO: Hey, man. I'm a country boy. I don't give a fuck.

MYE: Hey, I got you, man. I'm with ya.

WINO: Harley Davidson motorcycles and living out in the country, man. I can see people get down on the southern rock, but the thing is, Gov't Mule when Allen Woody was alive, they had a magic chemistry. I saw them come out one time and play a Zappa song, right out've the blue. Warren had a white firebird and Allen had a white T-bird. [Humming riff] "Pygmy Twilight"! My jaw hit the floor. It's really notey! I'm a huge Zappa fan and I couldn't believe it. When they did that, they did it instrumental, they didn't sing it, but when they did that, that did it for me. When he died it was a huge loss.

MYE: I wanted to ask you about one of my favorite songs you ever put out, the song "The Last Embrace" from the LAST EMBRACE discography of Spirit Caravan. [Note: Sans the Dreamwheel EP.] The title track of the collection, its beautiful and dark.

WINO: There was a cardinal, this red bird would come up to my window every morning and peck at the window. It was really bizaare, like he was trying to get in. I just reflected on the brittleness of life, you know? I think Sherman suggested leaving the electric out and the guys didn't like the electric coming in so late but...Sherman had a good sound, a good fuzzy bass sound.

MYE: I loved that cold, acoustic sound with the driving bass.

WINO: You know, our song "Dove Tongued Aggressor"? Tony Hawk used it in a video, someone told me.

MYE: I didn't know that. That's great.

WINO: Yeah. That was a song, me and Sherman would collaborate a lot. He'd come in with a riff and I'd finish the song and write the lyrics often. That was a collaboration.

MYE: The title track of Punctuated Equilibrium is fast but you don't lose the pocket, kind of like what I loved about The Hidden Hand song "Screw The Naysayers."

WINO: Yeah. It's a hard one to sing and play. The fast songs don't come as frequently as the slow ones, so it's good to get a good one in there. It's hard to write a good fast song because so many people are writing these crazy fast songs. The songs that come naturally to me still kinda have a D.C. sound in a way. That stuff rubbed off on me. All the Bad Brains stuff rubbed off on me. I used to see them and get pinned to the wall, until they went Reggae and then it was over for me pretty much, but there were some great bands. Faith and Void, bands like that. I love that kinda stuff. We talked about doing another one because we realized that was the only fast song we were playing in the set. So we're gonna do "A World Apart". We're playing a lot of old stuff! The guys want to. They are calling out their favorite songs and I have to go relearn some. In Europe you have to play two hours for the kids or they'll be clutching your legs as you're walking off. [laughing] I don't know if I should let the cat out've the bag, but we're playing some of everything. We're playing Hidden Hand, Caravan stuff. We're even doing a Place Of Skulls song, one song from With Vision. We're gonna try it. Jon Blank really wants to do it. It's hard to do with one guitar, you know? "Long Lost Grave" about the Civil War. We were beating the drums for war here and the dude who recorded that Place of Skulls record was a hardcore Christian rock guy, but he had great ears! But he was playing Fox News all the time and would leave it on. The thing is, it inspired me to write that song. I knew it was coming!

MYE: What do you think about some of the reversals already coming like Guantanamo getting closed?

WINO: You can't hold people with no charges and not try them. Prove it in court. That's communist era stuff! I mean, Obama is gonna have to move to the center and can't do everything at once, but the best part besides his speech at the Inauguration was seeing House Minority Leader John Boehner. He looked like he was gonna be sick to his stomach! I called my Dad up and said, 'You know who John Boehner is?" And he said, "No." And I said, "You remind me a lot of him."

MYE: [laughing]

WINO: He's a diehard Republican. It's brutal sometimes, you know?

MYE: You've accomplished so much creatively with an "alternative" lifestyle.

WINO: Sometimes it's hard for them to see you struggle to do something out of your soul and that you're not making money.

MYE: Say, "Dad, I'm a guitar legend."

WINO: I see both sides of the coin. Mom would say "You gotta play what the people wanna hear." And does that mean Top 40? If that's the case, I don't think that's what the people wanna hear. At least not my people.