by Tina Peek
LINKS:
Levine co-produced most of the band's earlier works and Gil Moore was
somewhat of a pyrotechnics expert in his own right. His talents were one
of the reasons Triumph's stage shows proved too large for a support act,
not only because of the pyro, but also because of their infamous laser
light shows as well. In fact, Triumph received the influential Performance
Magazine's Innovators of the Year award in 1981, for the unique
way they changed the arena rock landscape.
Triumph began a U.S. headlining tour in San Antonio in 1977, which remained
a popular venue for the trio throughout the years. They began their first
Canadian tour in 1978. The band emerged from the Toronto underground to
become one of Canada's biggest musical exports. Triumph went on to release
nine studio, two live, and a greatest hits album--eight of which went
gold. They were nominated for the Juno Group of the Year Award in '79,
'85, '86, and '87. In 1981 Rik won the Juno Award for Best Guitarist in
a public vote. Rarely favored critically, Triumph was often depicted by
the Toronto media as a business, rather than creative venture. In fact,
the group opened its own recording studio, Metalworks (based in Mississauga),
in 1981. Moore is the owner of Metalworks Studios and continues in the
production end of the music business, where it remains one of the premier
recording facilities in North America today.
After thirteen years, Rik left Triumph in 1988 due to creative differences,
disharmony over writing credits, and artistic direction. He began a solo
career, recording his first album Absolutely in 1990 which produced
four hits in Canada. In 1993, he was inducted with members of Triumph
into the Canadian Rock Hall Of Fame. However, Emmett didn't attend, sighting
irreconcilable differences. Mike Levine has pursued Internet-based business
interests related to the entertainment field and is busy handling Triumph's
new label, TRC, which has now re-released all their recordings with original
liner notes and art work.
Thanks to their recent induction into the Canadian Music Industry Hall
of Fame, doing interviews and press, and coming together under the name
of Triumph to accept an award for the legacy they created, they have been
hanging out like old friends again, and it seems, have finally put aside
their differences. The "brothers" are back together and we couldn't
be happier. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to chat with
Gil Moore a few days prior to Triumph's induction.
TINA
PEEK: Hi Gil, I'd like to start off by saying congratulations
on Triumph's induction into the Canadian Music Industry's Hall of Fame.
GIL MOORE: Thanks a million Tina, I appreciate that!
TP: No problem! It's quite an honor and achievement.
How does being inducted make you feel, besides older?
GM: (laughs) It sure does that!! It's like looking back
and saying…the first days that we ever rehearsed, back in the same
bowling alley in Mississauga and not knowing where we were headed or what
was gonna' happen and all the little things along the way like getting
our first record deal, the first time hearing a Triumph song on the radio,
the first concert, you kinda' go back through that in your mind and say
to yourself, "Oh my God, the Hall Of Fame!!" And you think,
"I guess this is where it ends!" And my eight year old son Myles
summed it up when he heard about it, and he said, "Dad, are you gonna'
come back from the Hall of Fame?" (laughs)
TP: Kids don't always understand, but that's cute!
GM: (laughs) That's the generation I guess!
TP: Well I'm
sure that when you were rockin' out on stage in your 20’s, you never
dreamt that thirty years later, the band you helped create would achieve
such high recognition...or did you always have a feeling that this band
was destined for greatness?
GM: I think you always are a fan of your own music. To
me, saying that we're going into the Hall Of Fame, it just doesn't make
any logical sense in my own mind, because I still feel like, "Hey,
I'm a kid and that's for one of my idols." You know? But Ian Gillan
from Deep Purple, for example, and Burton Cummings, and Randy Bachman
did camera tributes to us. And to me, I look at Deep Purple and I go,
"Now there's a band that should be in the Hall Of Fame." Or
The Guess Who-- there's a band that should be in the Hall Of Fame--because
to me, those were the bands that I looked up to, and I still feel like
we're just these three young punks, just starting out. I don't know. I
don't think you ever get over that. You always look to the generation
that went before you as being the real deal, and they're the ones that
you idolized. I idolized John Bonham of course, as most drummers did and
a lot of the blues musicians from the American blues scene, a lot of the
originals--the same with bands like Purple and Zeppelin, I mean, they've
played off a lot of those old tracks that became standards in the blues
field. So they were my kind of idols and when I think of the Hall Of Fame,
I think of them. I don't think of bands like Triumph. And I guess eventually,
when I see even younger bands in the Hall Of Fame, it will seem like,
"Wow, this should be like some kind of Junior Hall Of Fame"
(laughs).
TP: Does it surprise you to see so many long time loyal
fans still out there with web sites dedicated to keeping the memory and
music of Triumph alive?
GM: Yeah, I thought it would all sort of fade out, but
it hasn't and it's really...I can't say enough about the Triumph fans.
I mean they've been so loyal it's just incredible!! There's a few of them
that send me birthday cards every year. They’ve almost become like
family members and I'm thinking, "I don't even have any relatives
that are....that are....."
TP: That are that dedicated??
GM: (laughs) That are that dedicated. There are a couple
of them that my daughter keeps in touch with, there are a couple of them
that my wife keeps in touch with, that contact me directly…
TP: That's wonderful.
GM: Yeah, it really is. And you realize, holy smokes,
you really must have meant something to these people, you know? It's very
touching.
TP: I bet! Well, I'm sure your fans are hoping to see
a Triumph reunion one day, and I know you get asked this a lot, but maybe
even an anniversary type of performance...never say never, but in your
opinion, do you think it could ever happen?
GM: It could possibly happen. It's quite difficult logistically,
because we're all doing different things now, so we're quite busy. I know
in my own case, I'm really, really excited by what I do now, which is
operate Metalworks. We've now split into three divisions. We have a live
concert division, we have the recording studio complex that everybody's
familiar with, and we also have a vocational school now that teaches audio
and entertainment business and so on. And I've got a great staff here
and that gets me excited every day. To get away from here and go and do
a tour is not impossible, but would be quite difficult, given the level
of involvement I have. And Rik and Mike, they have their own careers and
their own obligations, but if we could somehow pull it off somewhere down
the road, it would be fun. The only difference is, if we were to do it,
I think for me, I would want to take my whole family. It would be a different
scenario. When we went out and toured, we were like the Three Musketeers
and to do it now would be more like that movie with Chevy Chase and Bev
D'Angelo called "Vacation". Did you ever see that? They had
this big woody station wagon, with a dog and all these kids...
GM: The last tour for Gil Moore (laughs)...and I have seen my future!!
TP: Is this going to be the first time that you and Mike have been on the same stage, or spoken with Rik Emmet since the band’s break-up in the late 80's?
GM: No, we get together with Rik quite a bit. Last Sunday I spent about 3 or 4 hours with him, just having coffee and shooting the breeze.
TP: That's good to hear.
GM: Yeah, that's been the best thing that's come out of this from my point of view, is just re-establishing relations with Rik. It's been way too long and you know, bands get into these silly fights and then it drags on for years. And I'm embarrassed that we were no exception to the rule. So I'm just happy that it's over and we're building bridges and mending fences and that's the best from my perspective.
GM: Yeah, I guess it triggered it, you know? I've wanted to try and fix things for a lot of years, but like I said, you get entrenched. You get mad. You get entrenched. It's human nature. And nobody wants to go back and open old wounds, so it becomes a difficult situation. But I think, probably, we all felt as bad about it inside, in our own way, and probably are all equally relieved that it's not like that now. You know, Mike and I always have stayed great friends, and I always felt that when the band broke up and that when Rik left and we had our big war with Rik, I felt like, well, it was like losing a brother. So to get him back and have the family re-united as it were, it feels great! And that's more important to me than the Hall Of Fame tribute to be honest with you. Just being able to talk and when we talk about what went on, it's a lot different because we remember the funny stuff, the little nuance that no one knows about, the incident at the hotel, or the incident (starts laughing) backstage. So we have all these old war stories, that if you get the three of us in a room, we'd be laughing so hard, we'll all be crying after 45 minutes of telling stories. You really can't share that with anybody else, so it's fantastic from my perspective anyway, it's just fantastic to have the three of us back talking and laughing and it's great!
TP: That's great to hear Gil! So we can expect to see all the band members on stage together, this isn't going to be Canada's version of Van Halen?
GM: No, no...you know what? If we ever do the on again/off again Van Halen deal, somebody shoot me, please. I will stake my hand on a stack of Bibles it will never happen again. I've learnt my lesson as far as having wars in bands. It's not worth it. Mike and Rik have both meant too much to me in my life, to ever want to have a fight with either one of them, beyond telling each other to go to hell once or twice (laughs), I mean, get over it, right? No grudges. No grudges ever again.
TP: Exactly! Okay, I really want to ask you this...is it true that you haven't played the drums since the last time that Triumph played?
GM: Almost true. I haven't, but I played drums on a couple of tracks for Delores O'Riordan when she was here recording her new record and she just gave me a really good arm twist one day...
TP: Well I'm glad....
GM: I was like, "Look, you don't want me, I haven't done this for a long time, let me find you somebody, I've got tons of great drummers I could call." "No no no!! I want you to do it!" So that was it, but that was just a couple of days I did that.
TP: And what was it like getting back into it again after such a long time?
GM: It's like, well, if I was to play drums, it's kinda' like going back to the gym. You don't forget how to do it, you just have to start doing the chin ups and push ups and all that.
TP: So it's kind of like riding a bike, once you learn, you never forget...
GM: Oh yeah, yeah. It never goes out of your head, it just goes out of your hands and feet, so you gotta' go back and do it.
TP: And get the timing back and so on...
GM: Exactly.
TP: You've mentioned somewhere before that you were a terrible stick twirler, but how would you compare your drumming skills back then, to the skills of such drummers as say, a Lars Ulrich from Metallica or Tommy Lee from Motley Crue, do you think you could show them a thing or two, would they be able to keep up with you or vice versa?
GM: You know, I think that a lot of the new guys that have come along, that are a lot younger than those two, are really amazing because I think the instruction they get is a lot better than what we got. Because we didn't really get much, we were really kind of self-taught you know? So if you look at Tommy Lee or Tommy Aldrige or Lars or a lot of these guys, they got what I got. They got to watch John Bonham, or Ian Paice, or Al Jackson and figure out what they were doing and think "Gee I like that" or "I don't like that" or "How do I do that?" And that's how they did it, was kinda' watch. Whereas now they've got really fantastic instructional DVDs, so the new generation of drummers that are coming up, to me I think they're going to blow all the older guys away.
TP: You really believe that?
GM: Yeah, I do. Yeah, they're going to be way better. And also, they're smarter too. I mean, that's the other thing. All you have to do is watch your own kids, and you see them coming along. And it's amazing how sharp kids are today. Just the average eighteen year old--I'm seeing this with Metalworks Institute, with the students that we have, because a lot of them come right from high school, that's probably the primary source--and the students that I've met, I'm constantly amazed at how much more mature a lot of them are than I was and the kids that I grew up with were when we were at that stage. And they've got so many more resources with the Internet and so on, and so it's phenomenal. If their mind is active and they're motivated, they can become advanced quite quickly. So I think with drums, I think it's a generational thing. Like, I like golf. I watch Tiger Woods and the players that have come along since Tiger and so on. I mean these guys, man, they're on a different level! That's from fifteen years ago.
TP: If Triumph were releasing their debut album today, instead of back in 1975, how do you think the band would fare?
GM: Well, it's hard to say, because when you look back on bands from the 70's and 80's, they seem very stuck in those era's. And they are, because that was what was happening at the time and so on. But when we started, we were very avant-garde, I don't know if that's the right word, but, every band that comes along is supposed to be ‘the next great thing’, and that's really the journalistic phrase that applies to it. Whatever the style the music happens to be, it's that it's ‘avant-garde’, it's ‘ahead of it's time’, it's ‘cutting edge’, it's ‘where it's going’ it's not where it's been, all that sort of stuff. So I think that when you look in rear-view mirror, you look back and you see bands, they ALL look dated. There isn't one band I can pick from that the work is contemporary. Like AC/DC, I mean, you listen to AC/DC, I love 'em but it sounds incredibly dated, it sounds no different than 1977--whether they're doing it in 2007. But you know, that's as it should be. I mean, who would want an AC/DC that sounded like, these guys, this band that just came through the studio, Alexisonfire, I love these guys. Canadian band, I mean, they're just absolutely rippin'. And when I look at them, it kind of reminds me of what we were going through at the time. I kinda' look at them and go, "I could just see you in the bowling alley, just like Mike and Rik and me. Debating this and debating that, working on these songs and workin' on your style." And nothing much has changed, just the styles of course, I think they've really improved. I like a lot of the newer bands now, the ones that are really good, like Alexisonfire, as a rock band, I really think they're really great! And it completely translates. Like when I listen to their stuff, I don't have any kind of stance of, "Ah well, the older bands, their styles were better, or they were more on top of it or whatever." I say, "No, no, no, this is like a complete evolution!" And this is where hard rock's going. And there's a lot of bands that are doing the same thing, in different styles you know? Metric was here, we mixed their record and I thought some of their music was really, really fascinating. Whereas I felt like Alexisonfire reminded me of Triumph, 25 years later. It's different styles but boy, there's a lot of good stuff out there!!
GM: I think it's always been a perceived disadvantage to be Canadian, but I don't feel it is. If you think about a lot of the music that's broken in America, it was primarily British, when you go back to when I'll say, the "rock era" started, with the British invasion and so on...and that's really continued, I mean, there's been so many bands from Europe that have exploded in America and you can see that Canadians can get the job done. I mean, look at what some of the women have done, from Celine Dion and Alanis Morissette, to Shania and so on, they can certainly get the job done. I think with rock bands, there's been a perceived wall there, because after The Guess Who, the bands that were coming out, with notable exceptions like say Rush, had a really hard time and it continues to this day, a really hard time breaking into the United States. And we thought from day one, even when we were rehearsing in the bowling alley, our primary objective was, we wanna' get across the border, we wanna' break in the United States. Because we thought at the time it made perfect sense because we knew that if we broke in the States, we would break in Canada. But if we spent our time toiling away in Canada trying to break, then it might be a lot harder to break in America. So we were targeted that way. So when I see managers today, who have been successful with artists, like I read an interview that Terry McBride did a while ago about Sarah McLachlan and his experience in America with her, his mindset about how to make a band break world-wide and it all related to touring and going market by market and building pockets of strength and so on. And I thought, "Gee, that's exactly how we marketed Triumph."
TP: That's
exactly what you guys did?
GM: Exactly what we did. We just decided that we were
going to try to create pockets of strength in America and then build them.
Because with the States, it's like, each state is like a country and you
just want to get something going in the southwest, something going in
the mid-west, something going in the north-east, etc etc. and then just
build on those regional successes. Whereas, in Canada, it's difficult
because there is no pocket of population. It's much more difficult. Also,
culturally you get like, what's going on in Vancouver doesn't bare any
resemblance to what's going on, let's say, in Quebec. And out East is
completely different than southern Ontario. So if I was managing or telling
a band today what I think they should be doing, that would be the mandate.
I would say, "Get out there and I don't care where you start."
Like some of the cities we started in, like Louisville, Kentucky was one
that we started in, San Antonio, Texas was another, and Chicago. We were
in Chicago very early, to get in those cities where you can actually build
some excitement, it's just like a boulder. The first one-64th of a turn
is the hardest roll, but once you finally get that boulder to roll, some
good things can happen.
TP: In your opinion, do you think the Canadian Content
Laws that the Government has put in place here, have made a difference
for Canadian artists?
GM: Oh totally. They've helped Canadian musicians tremendously.
You know, I've listened to the argument that they haven't helped, and
it's a really hollow argument. The theory that it would water down the
talent up here, that's baloney. Canadian artists, for some reason or other,
and I've talked this over with numerous artists, the last one was Tom
Cochrane, who is my dear friend, and we talked about why is there so much
talent in Canada? Is it in the water? And Tom's theory, and this is one
good explanation, is that with the climate that we have up here and when
you dial the clock back, before the Internet and so on, we were a little
bit culturally isolated. So the family, as a musical unit, is something
that was sort of, it was part of how we grew up. And I know in my own
life that's true. My mom's family, my mom was a pianist, two of her sisters
were pianists, so every single family event when I was three, four, five
years old were with my mom and her sisters playing piano and everybody
sang and that's a familiar story. So I think that we're always going to
have an abundance of great musicians and singers and so on from Canada.
I have no statistic that I can point to, to prove it, that's just my observation.
And I suppose if there was a statistic that would bare it out, we've sold
a disproportionately large number of records in the world since the phonograph
industry started fifty years ago, so that kind of bares that out, I suppose.
TP: I agree. Okay Gil, last question...I just wanted
to touch base again on Metalworks Studios, which you own, and which was
initially started as a recording facility for the band Triumph. Metalworks
has made an impressive impact in the music industry over the past 25 years
as a premier recording facility. My question is this: do you find it more
enjoyable and satisfying sitting behind the scenes helping new talent
achieve their own successes and working with established artists such
as Prince and Rush, Our Lady Peace and far too many other bands and artists
that you've worked with, to list them all here, or all things being equal,
going back to the heyday of Triumph's success, would you prefer to be
back on stage, banging the drums and singing in front of thousands of
frantic fans again?
GM: You know, I wouldn't change things at all. I just
feel so blessed that I had a chance to do both. What I found was incredible
in my experience with Triumph, was...like I said, we went out there like
three pirates, out to find America and conquer the world as kids. And
we were able to do it. And we were able to have a lot of fun doing it.
And we were fortunate enough to be successful doing it and have all these
loyal fans that have stuck with us for years and years and years, you
know, and who continue to come up to me and talk to me and tell me about
antidotes in their life that relate to the band and so on. But I have
to tell you, that after doing it for the number of years we did it, I
got very, very tired with the travel, because I grew up in a tight-knit
family and I always wanted to be around my kids, and I didn't want to
be estranged from my kids. I didn't want to be a guy that lived in a hotel
room who got to see his kids every quarter. I wanted to be a hands-on
dad and have a family. So what my career behind the scenes has enabled
me to do, is still work with all the same artists and all the same people,
have all the same fun, but be able to raise a family. I just feel that
I've been really fortunate that I've been able to do that. I know a lot
of artists that would like to do that and haven't been able to make that
turn in their life, so I really wouldn't trade one for the other. I wouldn't
want to be back in Triumph now, but I wouldn't want to have given up what
I did in Triumph and been in the studio on the production side and the
educational side, at that stage in my life.
TP: I'd like to thank you for giving me so much of your
time today for the interview Gil! Best of luck on the Induction and continued
success for Metalworks!!
GM: Thank you very much Tina!!
TP: Thank you!!
SIDE NOTE: Metalworks Recording & Mastering Studio,
located in Mississauga Ontario, won their tenth "Recording Studio
of the Year" award at the 25th Annual Canadian Music Industry Awards
on March 8th, 2007. Congratulations Gil!!
